Geometric whirlpools revealed
Recipe for making symmetrical holes in water is easy.
Bizarre geometric shapes that appear at the centre of swirling vortices in planetary atmospheres might be explained by a simple experiment with a bucket of water.
Read more here
Comments
I wonder if the geometrical shapes seen in the center of the bucket are caused by a resonance wavelength being forced to confine itself in a circular form.
Posted by: Paul Ricketts | May 19, 2006 09:17 PM
What we are seeing are what could be described as a self-organizing (fluid) geometric structure, in a sense, its not unlike a crystal, but because of the motion state, held in balance its a lot more intriguing. BTW, many fluids and also some solids (powders) can make similar structures when subjected to vibratory oscillation. (Like audio frequencies at specific tones) We call these phenomena standing waves.
Posted by: Chris Beaumont | May 21, 2006 05:25 PM
Various metaphors have been used in popular science books to illustrate the notion of spontaneous symmetry breaking. This phenomenon may be better for this purpose than any up to now.
Posted by: John Friesen | May 21, 2006 06:14 PM
Guys are http://www.enterprisemission.com/ discovered this 1-2 years ago in hurricanes sat images. But were using the info to help prove ""Hyperdimensional physics" and so science wasn't listening.
Posted by: Gumby | May 21, 2006 07:02 PM
Two things intrigue me:
one: this might be a way to systematize turbulence, and
two: Isaac Newton might have seen this and asked some interesting questions.
Thank you for an interesting tidbit.
sabadash
Posted by: sabadash | May 21, 2006 08:53 PM
That's very interesting! We can make a good simulation with CFD code? could we try it? Maybe we could learn it more with CFD simulation.
Posted by: DU Run | May 22, 2006 05:32 AM
Interesting article.
Curious to know if this relates to Chladni patterns...
Posted by: Andreas Springer | May 22, 2006 06:39 AM
I hope motor or other types of vibrations have thoroughly been ruled out as a cause for this phenomenon.
Posted by: Joakim Lindblad | May 22, 2006 07:47 AM
Wonder if shapes are any different if experiment done at different latitude/longitude?
Posted by: Ron | May 22, 2006 01:32 PM
I like the theory that the patterns are some sort of confined resonance condition. It neatly explains how different numbers of lobes can occur, from ellipse (2) to pentagon (5) etc at different speeds.
Posted by: Dave Doman | May 22, 2006 02:34 PM
Have seen weather patterns in swirling water before - when I tutored in atmospheric science. This looks more like standing waves though - perhaps quantised energy levels - resonance patterns - perhaps like Bohrs atom.
Posted by: Chris | May 22, 2006 03:04 PM
Yes, these shapes mimic almost exactly those of Chladni patterns. Patterns produced by sound waves acting on particles (usually sand) on vibrating plates.
Posted by: Stephen | May 22, 2006 05:00 PM
I wonder how the different flow structures pertain to ergodicity. Might have applications to mixing.
( In fact, one thinks of the type of stirring (plain, reversing cyclones) done in the creation of Steiner's biodynamic mixtures. )
As for Mr.J. Lindblad's concern regarding exogenous vibration: If we saw a pentagonal hurricane, would it be any less valid or worthy of study if it was determined that an essential cause was the motion of the Earth's molten core?
Posted by: Ross Mohan | May 22, 2006 06:50 PM
What's the section like?
Posted by: F Green | May 23, 2006 08:02 AM
They claimed it was evidence of hyperdimensional hurricanes. Whatever that means:
http://www.enterprisemission.com/hurricane1.htm
Posted by: gumby | May 24, 2006 02:16 PM
What would these patterns look like in higher dimensions?
E.g. has anyone done any modeling of this phenomenon using 3-d pressure waves? It seems that you might get a 3-d constellation of nodes (perhaps in the shape of a tetrahedron, etc.)
Posted by: Andreas Springer | June 1, 2006 09:43 PM
Re geometric whirlpools.
Setting aside the question of gravity, and assuming that the water is in a cylinder, under the influence of centrifugal force, the geometric shape at the base of the container would be a circle, the diameter of which would represent a constant value in relation to the mass of the water in continuous expansion (continuous, in so far as the cylinder was removed). This could be related to a physical demonstration of pi.
Posted by: Jacques Senechal | June 9, 2006 05:03 PM
Are these 'Geometric whirlpools' some type of superellipse?
SEE: MathWorld examples
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Superellipse.html
Posted by: Doug | July 12, 2006 03:53 AM
Is it a basic natural fact or maybe the result of some searchs.
Thank you
Posted by: Bertrand Martin | August 1, 2006 09:33 AM
Reinventing the wheel
I have read this article carefully as well as the accompanied recent work by Jansson et al. “Polygons on a Rotating Fluid Surface” that appeared in PHYSICAL REVIEW LETTERS, vol. 96, May 3, 2006 pp. 1- 4, and here are my brief comments:
In the abstract of the previously mentioned article they mention that: “We report a novel and spectacular instability of a fluid surface in a rotating system”. The phenomenon is indeed spectacular but not novel. In 1989 we have observed and described the phenomenon in an experimental set-up that is similar to theirs, please see the original contribution, Vatistas, G.H., "A Note on Liquid Vortex Sloshing and Kelvin's Equilibria", Journal of Fluid Mechanics, vol. 217, 1990, p. 241. They also state that: “It has been known for many years that such flows are prone to symmetry breaking, but apparently the polygonal surface shapes have never been observed”. Referring to the previous citation we find that this statement is also not accurate. Subsequent to the original observations, 16 years ago, we have elaborated on several unique properties of the phenomenon, please refer to:
1. Vatistas, G. H., Wang, J., and Lin, S. "Experiments on Waves Induced in the Hollow Core of Vortices". J. Exp. Fluids, vol. 13, 1992, p.377.
2. Vatistas, G. H., Wang, J., and Lin, S. "Recent Findings on Kelvin's Equilibria", Acta Mechanica, vol. 103, 1994, p. 89.
3. Vatistas, G.H., Esmail, N., and Ravanis, C. "Wave Development in Disk-Like Nearly Inviscid Liquid Vortices", 39th AIAA Aerospace Sciences Meeting and Exhibit. Paper no. AIAA 2001-0168, 8-11 January 2001, Reno, NV.
In addition to planetary atmospheric vortices mentioned by Philip Ball, the phenomenon also appears in the Spiral Galaxies, see for example Morozov A. G. et al. "Laboratory Simulation of the Generation of the Spiral Structure of Galaxies (Theory and Experiment)", Sov. Phys. Usp, vol. 28 (1), 1985, p. 101, and Vatistas, G.H., "Double Vortex", Letter to the Editor, New Scientist, 18 December 1993, p.50.
Sincerely,
Georgios H. Vatistas
Professor of Mechanical and industrial Engineering
Concordia University, Montreal, Canada
Email:Vatistas@encs.concordia.ca
Posted by: Georgios H. Vatistas | November 24, 2006 01:25 PM
Do Bee Honeycomb cell-shapes fall into this science? -DD
Posted by: dave | March 28, 2007 11:38 PM
The Saturn's polar Hexagonal effect is due to standing waves in a magnetically driven ferrofluid surface.
ref:to American Physical Society. Phys.Rev.Let.84,5316-5319(2000) Hyun-Jae,So-yeon Park,Jysoo Lee,and KyoungmJ.Lee *
Posted by: bobatcpu | March 29, 2007 10:28 AM
A simple analogy:
Place a coin on the table.
Surround it with a row of identical size coins, each touching the other.
Result? A perfect circle.
Now surround those with another row of coins in the same manner.
Result? A perfect hexagon!
Posted by: Hollis Kimball | March 30, 2007 03:42 AM
I think this is an artifact of the electric motor's radial assymetry rather than simple rotation; fifty bucks says the phenenoma disappears if you use a flywheel and shut the motor off, and saturn remains a mystery.
Posted by: chris reiss | April 6, 2007 07:27 PM
Follow up - the motor 'pulses' as its artmature goes thru changing magnetic fields, whether the motor is on or off. So mechanically disconnect the motor and let the flywheel do the spinning.
The flywheel will also act as gyro to smooth out "wobbling" as the original experiments suggest. And I think the shapes will disappear. We knew already we can make standing waves by vibrating the bucket. The interesting this is : can turbulent (or not) rotational flow produce these patterns?
Posted by: chris reiss | April 9, 2007 10:19 PM
I disagree with Chris Reiss, and will take that bet. Use a flywheel, disconnect the motor, and spin the flywheel (in some manner that will not introduce vibration - flywheel must be mounted somehow to reduce shock and vibration while being spun).
I predict it will make no difference, and that the shapes will still appear.
Georgio Vatitstas comment that this phenomena has been observed in spiral galaxies is intriguing. I wonder if anyone has observed 7, 8, 10, or 16 sided polygons at higher speeds...
So, Chris, if You really want to set up this experiment (and risk Your 50 bucks), let me know. My gmail address is available online.
Posted by: Dave Manchester | April 10, 2007 10:00 PM
In response to Dave’s question “Georgio Vatitstas comment that this phenomena has been observed in spiral galaxies is intriguing. I wonder if anyone has observed 7, 8, 10, or 16 sided polygons at higher speeds...” we have the following to say.
Using water as the working fluid, the interval of endurance of waves with the same number decreases with the wave number. Therefore, n = 7, if in theory exists it must be critically stable. The equilibrium polygons were found to be exceptionally stable. When disturbed by a momentarily applied external disturbance to the flow, the patterns reemerged after a short period of time in their original form. Both quasi-static and sudden increase to the final disk speed produced the same equilibrium pattern. The latter indicated that the phenomenon is not particularly sensitive to initial conditions.
Higher than 6 standing waves can only be obtained using higher viscosity liquids and low initial liquid heights, such as in oil (with a kinematic viscosity almost two orders of magnitude greater). The phenomenology of the last vortices is richer and thus more complex than that of water. Although these instability manifestations bear many similarities to water, their evolution however, exhibits a radically different non- linear dynamic character. In the case of water, the equilibria emerge in succession one after the other (with an interval of mixed states in-between) by increasing the disk rotation and are nearly the same during ascending and descending sequences. In the case of oil, the order of flow patterns during the spin-up and spin-down sequences are completely different. There is no fixed rotation speeds at which transformation from one wave pattern into another takes place, Given the initial liquid level, the shape of the final pattern depended on the time history of the spin up or spin-down process. There were times where, although we started the disk rotation for the same amount of oil from rest, different equilibria emerged! Similar circumstances have been reported in studies that dealt with the flow in the concentric rotating spheres, Taylor vortices, and Bernard convection.
For more information please consult the references given in our previous posting.
Posted by: Georgios H. Vatistas | April 12, 2007 02:48 PM
For more details regarding an exploration for the probable connection of this phenomenon to gaseous galactic disk hydrodynamics can be found in:
http://eprintweb.org/S/authors/All/va/Vatistas
For scientific objectiveness and integrity a note of caution is also in order. The majority of contemporary astrophysicists do not accept hydrodynamic instability as a possible cause for the multi-arm structure of galaxies put forward by professor Alexei Maximovich Fridman (a corresponding member of the Russian Academy of Sciences: http://www.inasan.rssi.ru/~fridman/ ) and his colleagues. Although we claim no substantial expertise beyond the area of classical fluid mechanics, we cannot at the same time avoid noticing the striking similarity between the two phenomena.
Posted by: Georgios H. Vatistas | April 14, 2007 12:09 PM
For more details regarding an exploration for the probable connection of this phenomenon to gaseous galactic disk hydrodynamics can be found in:
http://eprintweb.org/S/authors/All/va/Vatistas
For scientific objectiveness and integrity a note of caution is also in order. The majority of contemporary astrophysicists do not accept hydrodynamic instability as a possible cause for the multi-arm structure of galaxies put forward by professor Alexei Maximovich Fridman (a corresponding member of the Russian Academy of Sciences: http://www.inasan.rssi.ru/~fridman/ ) and his colleagues. Although we claim no substantial expertise beyond the area of classical fluid mechanics, we cannot at the same time avoid noticing the striking similarity between the two phenomena.
Posted by: Georgios H. Vatistas | April 14, 2007 12:11 PM
Perhaps a little mesianic, but i'm thinking that there's a relation between this and the mass rays in black holes. Seems that the ultimate 'poligon' must be a 'another dimension' one, that is, to expulse from a 2D plan to a 3D ray.
Posted by: coso | October 14, 2007 01:54 PM